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gster
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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This might be a red rag to a bull for some people, but with my work hat on I'm ploughing through the Govt's recently produced "State of the Cities" report: 500 plus pages of independent academic analysis and statistics on urban policy and how well English cities are doing in terms of economic competitiveness, quality of life, social cohesion, population growth etc.
As you might expect, the report indicates big disparities in performance between the North and the South, but the Northern city identified as being far and away the most successful over the period 1991-2003 is York - it's identified as doing far better than average on things like population growth, income rises, R&D and innovation, connectivity, educational performance, public transport use.
In fact York is up there in the top 10 in terms of most prosperous and fastest growing towns/cities; whilst Leeds and Manchester are making significant progress they are marked down for still having significant areas of deprivation and social exclusion. Warrington and Preston are nearest rivals in the North.
It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York, against the national trend, but I think this is skewed by a) a low BME population b) a "blip" in the vicinity of the University from overseas academics
Not really surprising to learn that the most successful overall are mostly in the South East; Oxford, Cambridge, and Brighton are up there but the leaders are Aldershot and Crawley.....
Bottom are places like Hull, Mansfield, Stoke, and Middlesbrough.
On a European level, Frankfurt comes out top, London 23rd, Edinburgh 25th, Bristol 34th, Leeds 43rd, Birmingham 56th, Manchester 57th, Newcastle 58th.
G
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Yabba
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York.
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Who wants to live in Tang Hall ?
A big wall would do for me.
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Bobby
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| gster wrote: |
| It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York |
And how the hell is this conclusion reached? Racial segregation? Where are the black ghettos in York????
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noddyinnapa
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| Bobby wrote: |
| gster wrote: |
| It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York |
And how the hell is this conclusion reached? Racial segregation? Where are the black ghettos in York????
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Coming from Donny the lack of black people in York has always amazed me to be honest, where are they all 
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Bobby
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| noddyinnapa wrote: |
| Coming from Donny the lack of black people in York has always amazed me to be honest, where are they all |
I know, where they hell are they? Are they discriminating against us???
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four candles in the wind
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| gster wrote: |
This might be a red rag to a bull for some people, but with my work hat on I'm ploughing through the Govt's recently produced "State of the Cities" report: 500 plus pages of independent academic analysis and statistics on urban policy and how well English cities are doing in terms of economic competitiveness, quality of life, social cohesion, population growth etc.
As you might expect, the report indicates big disparities in performance between the North and the South, but the Northern city identified as being far and away the most successful over the period 1991-2003 is York - it's identified as doing far better than average on things like population growth, income rises, R&D and innovation, connectivity, educational performance, public transport use.
In fact York is up there in the top 10 in terms of most prosperous and fastest growing towns/cities; whilst Leeds and Manchester are making significant progress they are marked down for still having significant areas of deprivation and social exclusion. Warrington and Preston are nearest rivals in the North.
It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York, against the national trend, but I think this is skewed by a) a low BME population b) a "blip" in the vicinity of the University from overseas academics
Not really surprising to learn that the most successful overall are mostly in the South East; Oxford, Cambridge, and Brighton are up there but the leaders are Aldershot and Crawley.....
Bottom are places like Hull, Mansfield, Stoke, and Middlesbrough.
On a European level, Frankfurt comes out top, London 23rd, Edinburgh 25th, Bristol 34th, Leeds 43rd, Birmingham 56th, Manchester 57th, Newcastle 58th.
G |
Can this improved prosperity be put down to the relationship between Town and Gown?
Can this improvement lead to the return of a Tory MP?
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CityTillIDie
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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From thisisyork.co.uk
| Quote: |
| At the same time, the size of its non-white population has more than doubled in a decade - albeit from a low base figure. |
Why do they say it as if it is some kind of achivement?
It's not racist at all to question why people think our lives are greatly improved by having a mix of races in our towns and cities.
The story with the great multi-cultural experiment in England, seems to be that it is a complete and utter f**k up, and the bigger the ethnic minority, the bigger the problems in those areas.
That's not necessarily the fault of the people who live in these areas, more the politicians that have let immigration get out of control, while calling all those who question it racist, ignorant, intollerant etc... while they live in sleepy little white villages.
Other than gun-crime, segregation, race riots etc... what exactly is it that York is missing out on?
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Bobby
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CityTillIDie wrote: |
| Other than gun-crime, segregation, race riots etc... what exactly is it that York is missing out on? |
To be fair, it's far from easy to score some crack in Ziggys.
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| Bobby wrote: |
| gster wrote: |
| It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York |
And how the hell is this conclusion reached? Racial segregation? Where are the black ghettos in York????
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I think it's basically determined by examining the census figures for BME population sifted by ward-level or by polling-district level (roughly 1000 households); my guess is that this would show that the majority of the city's BME population live either on or close to the university campus, and that there is a very low population level in other parts of the city.
G
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Bobby
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| gster wrote: |
| Bobby wrote: |
| gster wrote: |
| It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York |
And how the hell is this conclusion reached? Racial segregation? Where are the black ghettos in York????
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I think it's basically determined by examining the census figures for BME population sifted by ward-level or by polling-district level (roughly 1000 households); my guess is that this would show that the majority of the city's BME population live either on or close to the university campus, and that there is a very low population level in other parts of the city.
G
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And my guess as someone who actually has a degree in a proper subject is that any such analysis is rejectable at any sensible p-level value, and so is unpublishable. I mean, how many obviously non-British people do you see on the average night out in York? And how has that tiny number changed over the past few years? It really is f***ing stupid to talk about racial segregation in York. There is no deprived ghetto area being harassed by the police and struggling to survive (but if there is, it's Clifton, and nothing to do with racial background). So it comes down to more foreign students coming to York? And we're suppoed to see that as a problem????? Maybe we should limit the number of foreign students to one per postal code. They'll fit in better then, eh?
It's trivialising real racial problems in this country and around the world to talk about racial segregation in York, for f***s sake!!!!!!!! Whoever wrote that report is a right idiot and you, Greg, look like a right idiot for just parrotting what he said and not pointing out that it's complete stupid bollocks.
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tony canhan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| noddyinnapa wrote: |
| Bobby wrote: |
| gster wrote: |
| It also claims that racial segregation has slightly increased in York |
And how the hell is this conclusion reached? Racial segregation? Where are the black ghettos in York????
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Coming from Donny the lack of black people in York has always amazed me to be honest, where are they all
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Always seems to be plenty downstairs in the Gallery every Saturday  I have a friend in Hexthorpe where if anything it seems like English are in the minority now.
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MarkW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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The only alarming part of what was generally, I suppose, a good report for York was the 14% rise in households between 1991 and 2001.
14%!! - that sounds an awful lot. I mean a 14% increase in population would be about 20,000 - huge growth. But they have quoted the rise in "households" - is this likely to be a lesser figure? Are they saying that more people are living alone? I hate statistics - especially in the hands of Government analysts!
AND - it still doesn't explain why we get crap crowds at Bootham Crescent! Or shall we not go there again..............  |
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| CityTillIDie wrote: |
Other than gun-crime, segregation, race riots etc... what exactly is it that York is missing out on? |
At the risk of reopening a very tired flame-war, it could for a start be seen as missing out on culture, creativity, innovation, and enterprise, not to mention tolerance, broad-mindedness, and the massive boost immigration has brought to the economy from entrepreneurialism and from people willing to do the work that bone-idle dole-scroungers can't be bothered to do. Oh yeah, and better food.
Every race and society has people who contribute positively and people who contribute negatively; that is equally true of white Anglo-Saxons as black or Asian people. Unfortunately some people are blind to this point and seem to think that all people of the same skin colour are the same; this is typically known as prejudice.
If anyone is interested in further reading, Richard Florida is a modern thinker/economist who is also a very good communicator; his analysis of cities worldwide shows that there is a very strong link between 21st century economic success and high levels of immigration - the higher the ration of economic migration, multi-culturalism, and gay/lesbian population, the better a city thrives; in short, he puts it down to technology, tolerance, and talent.
In the 21st century post-industrial economy, the cities that succeed are going to be the ones which attract the people who can afford to live with they choose - the brightest, the innovators, the entrepreneurs. There is strong evidence to suggest they prefer to live in a) places with an attractive urban and/or natural environment and b) places that are "spiky" - which have broad-minded attitudes, a strong cultural scene, and typically, a multi-cultural society.
He thinks, and I agree, that cities which are narrow-minded and intolerant are not going to succeed.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0205.florida.html
G
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Last edited by gster on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| Bobby wrote: |
It's trivialising real racial problems in this country and around the world to talk about racial segregation in York, for f***s sake!!!!!!!! Whoever wrote that report is a right idiot and you, Greg, look like a right idiot for just parrotting what he said and not pointing out that it's complete stupid bollocks. |
Actually Bobby I agree; use of the word "segregation" smacks of 1950's Alabama or the Warsaw ghetto.
The report as a whole observes that in England, "racial segregation" in the sense that BME people are more likely to live in particular parts of a city and white people are more likely to live in other parts of the city, has on the whole fallen significantly over the past 20 years.
It argues that most cities have becomes significantly more "mixed" over recent years but it identifies York as a city which hasn't and which has if anything gone the other way.
My point is as set out above: I think this is distorted by a much lower base than other cities, and distorted by the presence of a cluster around the university.
G
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Bobby
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: York's "urban competitiveness" |
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| gster wrote: |
| Actually Bobby I agree; use of the word "segregation" smacks of 1950's Alabama or the Warsaw ghetto. |
Well that's fine then. Fancy a drink ?
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CityTillIDie
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
| CityTillIDie wrote: |
Other than gun-crime, segregation, race riots etc... what exactly is it that York is missing out on? |
At the risk of reopening a very tired flame-war, it could for a start be seen as missing out on culture, creativity, innovation, and enterprise, not to mention tolerance, broad-mindedness, and the massive boost immigration has brought to the economy from entrepreneurialism and from people willing to do the work that bone-idle dole-scroungers can't be bothered to do. Oh yeah, and better food.
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I think the fact that according to the YEP article, the economy in York is doing rather well for itself, puts that little argument to bed rather swiftly.
The fact is multi-culturalism hasn't worked, and will never work, which is why the people who argue for it never get much further than calling people narrow-minded for not being all for it, because their argument for it is bollocks.
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Last edited by CityTillIDie on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MarkW wrote: |
14%!! - that sounds an awful lot. I mean a 14% increase in population would be about 20,000 - huge growth. But they have quoted the rise in "households" - is this likely to be a lesser figure? Are they saying that more people are living alone? I hate statistics - especially in the hands of Government analysts!
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Basically yes; people are moving out of their parents home at a younger age than in the past, and also forming new households after the break-up of relationships. Total number of households has risen but the average size of household has dropped.
G
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MarkW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
| MarkW wrote: |
14%!! - that sounds an awful lot. I mean a 14% increase in population would be about 20,000 - huge growth. But they have quoted the rise in "households" - is this likely to be a lesser figure? Are they saying that more people are living alone? I hate statistics - especially in the hands of Government analysts!
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Basically yes; people are moving out of their parents home at a younger age than in the past, and also forming new households after the break-up of relationships. Total number of households has risen but the average size of household has dropped.
G
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Ta - sad but true; I was kind of waiting for a response to this before bogging off to bed. 
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Yabba
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
| CityTillIDie wrote: |
Other than gun-crime, segregation, race riots etc... what exactly is it that York is missing out on? |
At the risk of reopening a very tired flame-war, it could for a start be seen as missing out on culture, creativity, innovation, and enterprise, not to mention tolerance, broad-mindedness, and the massive boost immigration has brought to the economy from entrepreneurialism and from people willing to do the work that bone-idle dole-scroungers can't be bothered to do. Oh yeah, and better food.
G
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I never realised i live in a cultureless city.  One which has no history or diversity.
Our creativity has been shat upon from a great hight mainly through government action (or your chums you love telling us you are hob-'nobbing' with).
I think we've had enough of Liberal 'broadmindedness' too. Oaten has given us a fair impression of what that intails.
How tollerant would an British person moving to Pakistan (eg) be taken ?
I suppose when standing in Newcastle for MP, you admonished all those 'bone idle dole scroungers'.
I find people as a rule do wish to work, but when the only thing on offer is minimum wage with the likes of Nestle sacking people, there aren't many options left.
Good to see you've started towing the Ming the Merciless line already. Your sure for a promotion. Even the chance of a 'safe seat'.
What we certainly need is lots of more poverty stricken residents to suit some multi cultural 'commuinty'.
If I want 'better food' I go to a supermarket for some Pataks product, or visit one of the many takeaways in the city.
Thank you for telling us that we have 'bone idleness' when the city have had industries decimated by foreign firms.
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Culture of York: Hmmm let's see. Well if we're talking historical culture, that would be an amalgamation of Roman, Saxon, and Viking. All of them "foreign", all of them economic migrants...
G
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CityTillIDie
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Culture of York: Hmmm let's see. Well if we're talking historical culture, that would be an amalgamation of Roman, Saxon, and Viking. All of them "foreign", all of them economic migrants...
G |
FFS!  In that case, I think its a complete and utter disgrace that there are no dinosaurs or mammoths living in York.
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LondonVillageRed
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Culture of York: Hmmm let's see. Well if we're talking historical culture, that would be an amalgamation of Roman, Saxon, and Viking. All of them "foreign", all of them economic migrants...
G |
A lazy response. All countries around the world were created and shaped from invasion and war. To liken the Roman conquest of Britain with modern economic migration is ridiculous.
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yabba did say "no history"..... I was only pointing out the bleeding obvious.
To take the most obvious example, the USA's economic development had far more to do with immigration than it did from war, although I accept it was founded on colonialism and war against its indigenous population.
Economic migration - seems it's fine if you're Western, white and want to take a job in construction in Europe, financial services in New York, IT in Silicon Valley, or retire to the Costa del Sol.
If you've got brown skin and you want to work in the country that's systematically stripping your country of all its natural resources in exchange for peanuts and pollution, forget it.
G
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Yabba
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Culture of York: Hmmm let's see. Well if we're talking historical culture, that would be an amalgamation of Roman, Saxon, and Viking. All of them "foreign", all of them economic migrants...
G |
Don't talk s***e ! Economic migrants......... bolloxs. And you know it!
All those you mention were from another time when it was more to do with 'empire building' & the world was far less populated.
Look at the population figures per sq. mile as compared to other western countries. The UK is far & above many other countries. My simple question is why ?
Because we have one of the worlds best 'safety nets' when you wish to become a lazy scrounging doley. Also if you have a habit of having loads of off spring you can get enough benefits to not work.
Have a look at "Upyourstreet.co.uk", you may be surprised that even the likes of Osbaldwick aren't as afluent as the impression may give.
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tony canhan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Yabba did say "no history"..... I was only pointing out the bleeding obvious.
To take the most obvious example, the USA's economic development had far more to do with immigration than it did from war, although I accept it was founded on colonialism and war against its indigenous population.
Economic migration - seems it's fine if you're Western, white and want to take a job in construction in Europe, financial services in New York, IT in Silicon Valley, or retire to the Costa del Sol.
If you've got brown skin and you want to work in the country that's systematically stripping your country of all its natural resources in exchange for peanuts and pollution, forget it.
G |
As with everything ain life a balance needs to be found. I don't think it is particulary alarming that Cities like York or my hometown Scarborough do not have high ethnic populations because in reality there is not too much opportunity for them. At the same time when in London yesterday just wandering around Camden Market makes me glad that we have the diverse multi cultural country we have.
In an economy as large as ours we need what I would call positive immigration in order to remain competitive and for fresh ideas. I certainly think that with foreign students there is a very high work ethic because if they are from a third world country Education is there only hope.
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LondonVillageRed
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Yabba did say "no history"..... I was only pointing out the bleeding obvious.
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And he was clearly being sarcastic.
| Quote: |
To take the most obvious example, the USA's economic development had far more to do with immigration than it did from war, although I accept it was founded on colonialism and war against its indigenous population.
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Yes, but it was a new country and the analagy doesn't work with today.
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If you've got brown skin and you want to work in the country that's systematically stripping your country of all its natural resources in exchange for peanuts and pollution, forget it.
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How can you say that when you've just been in London for a few days? I would say this country is more open and welcoming to newcomers irrespective of their race than nearly any other in the world. Why is it that Liberals respond to any contrary point of view on the subject of immigration with veiled allegations of racism?
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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And way below countries like Japan, South Korea, the Netherlands, Belgium, Israel; more or less the same as Germany. Strangely those with the lowest density tend to be the largest countries....
Other interesting factoid in the State of the Cities report; the population rate is currently increasing at its fastest rate for 20yrs, mainly down to immigration and higher BME birth rate.
Without this increase, the natural fertility rate would not be sufficient to "replenish" the population; there would be more people dying each year than being born.
Given the population is ageing considerably, someone's got to provide the workers of the future...
G
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gster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| LondonVillageRed wrote: |
And he was clearly being sarcastic.
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So was I
G
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LondonVillageRed
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
| LondonVillageRed wrote: |
And he was clearly being sarcastic.
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So was I
G
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By pointing out the obvious? This is a level of irony way over my head......
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CityTillIDie
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| gster wrote: |
Given the population is ageing considerably, someone's got to provide the workers of the future...
G |
Yes, so lets fill the gap with poorly paid immigrants, that'll really help get those white trash dole scrounging scum back into work.
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